IKBBI – ANY OPINIONS

Firstly,
Welcome to the forum and it’s good to see more installers joining in discussions here.

I have heard about the IKBBBI through other forums and through our industry rag KBB review.
I have checked out the website and read various posts on related websites from installers, the majority of which seem to view them with disdain. I have to say, as a former installer and one who has a good knowledge of the installer pysche, anyone thinking of representing a body of people will stand a greater chance of success in doing so if they themselves at one time or another, worked as an Installer.

I’d be interested to learn whether any of the board that make up IKBBI were ever at any time left stood twiddling their thumbs in a kitchen, at the mercy of a designer’s plan that could no way fit the kitchen which they were charged to install, while at the same time being bombaded with questions from the angry client wanting an answer.

Although the former MFI managers who make up the board of IKBBI may have worked in the same industry, they were, in their former roles, answerable not to the installers’ needs but to the company who employed them, in this case MFI. Interestingly the first retailer to sign up with them is headed by a former MFI director. It’s beginning to feel a little like the MFI show and in all truth MFI are not percieved as an installer’s friend.

This is not an announcement of my intention to put myself forward as an installers’ representative as I have no intention of doing so, yet I would lend my support to a body that I felt could offer an effective solution for both competent installers and for the consumer trying to source one.

Secondly,
It confuses me how a company, not representative of installers at the initial stage of setting up a trade body, can have the support of all the major regulators or training bodies such as, KBB National Training Group, FFINTO, CITB etc, without first some discussion or consultation with installers.Perhaps had these Approving bodies first consulted the installers they wish to represent and informed them of their sanctioning of the KBBBI, installers could have used their own vetting procedures to determine IKBBBI’s validity to set up a representative body before then having a board of former ex MFI managers, vetting them.

Finally,
It’s imperative that there is a representative body for kitchen installers that benefits the needs of both the consumer and the installer. A membership fee is inevitable and would not put off the number of quality installers who currently trade across the UK, provided that through that trade body they can distinguish their skills from those who have little or none. To gain the respect and trust of these competent installers and of the consumer is a massive undertaking yet can, I believe, be successful if a body were to set the following criteria.

A thorough vetting procedure that allows a qualified and experienced inspector to visit an installer on the final day of two installations. Let’s face it, three testimonials, as many vetting bodies think are currently suitable for the purpose, could include one from Aunty Sally, Uncle Ernie and your best friend.

A resolution centre that adjudicates consumer/installer disputes, impartially and fairly and whose decision is accepted by both parties with an appeals process clearly established.

An ongoing commitment to utilising part of the finance raised from membership fees for offering youth training to those wishing to train as competent kitchen installers. Kitchen Installers would welcome any efforts to have their sons, daughters, nephews or nieces, become part of a respected trade body. Playing some part in doing so would just be a bonus.

Recruitment of experienced, perhaps retired, installers to undertake the vetting and to assist with training.

An award body/ceremony: lets face it, Installers are the people who bring the designer’s vision to reality (providing the designer has got the measurements right of course!) How about Young Installer of the Year; Kitchen Installer of the Year; Bathroom Installer of the Year; Bedroom Installer of the Year. Celebrating the best of the industry should be more wide ranging than just the "Designer of the Year"awards.

As this is an open forum, we do offer a right of reply to anyone who wishes to put forward their opinion on the matter and should this post come to the attention of IKBBBI, KBBNTG or CITB then perhaps they would kindly respond to the following questions.

Did KBBNTG or CITB or FFINTO gauge the thoughts of the installers before agreeing to support IKBBBI? I’m sure I would have heard about any such initiative given that this is an emotive issue well documented on this website.

How are the vetting procedures IKBBBI already have in place distinguished from the ineffective procedures carried out elsewhere?

Who is charged with undertaking site inspections and when does this take place, before member acceptance or after?

I find it interesting for instance that, given that the organisation states that members should have a voice on government policy (i.e. Part P) – does that same organisation give its members a say in whether their membership fees should be spent on sponsoring a local football team. Sponsoring 11 apprentices geographically well spread, would be more appropriate in my opinion.

There are many more questions that could be asked here and it would be good to hear from others.
Tim Foley

I agree.
Great post Tim.
I wasn’t thinking of joining but was interested to hear from others who might have done. Doesn’t seem like there are any.
Love the idea of an installers awards.
How about a "Worst retailer to work for award"
"Worst designer of the year"
"Longest time waiting for your payment award"
This list could go on forever.

I’d be happy to pay up for an institute that repersents us the way you said and how about a retirement fund for those of us with no kneecaps left?

Be careful Tim, you’d be in danger of damaging your reputation be linking up with the likes of Mr C.

His organisation offers very little in the way of benefiting the industry. Lets face it kitchen fitters don’t need another organisation. Not unless it’s one with teeth that will stand up to the national companies to protect the rights of the independent sole contractor. And that will never happen. The IKBBI are out to line there own pockets. If this is not the case why doesn’t Mr C put his case to us on one of the many forums instead of skulking around behind the scenes?

Out of curiosity what did he offer you to become more involved?

Tim

Sorry about the suggestion but it was tongue in cheek, hence the
I hope you don’t mind me putting the link? The forum is for kitchen installers most of whom work for the ‘big sheds’. The forum has been running for over three years and was set up when one of the sheds closed down theirs.

The people that decided to close the forum are the same guys that have set up the IKBBI. The reason that it was shut down was because they didn’t want to address the concerns of their fitters and didn’t want to hear about the problems installers were facing on a daily basis. Now these people may have had one hand tied behind their back and may have been following company policy But they were in a position for many many years to help support installers. They did not. For this reason there is a lot of scepticism in the industry about the intentions of the IKBBI and what real support they can offer installers. I have met and spoken to Mr C on a couple of occasions (before the IKBBI came into being) and have found him to be frank and open with a definite passion for the industry in which we work. This isn’t personal but for many his reputation as a former head of installations will get in the way of them joining his organisation. He’ll have to reach out to installers to convince them he’s genuine.

I totally agree with you that quality installers have no identity in the industry. And no doubt, if promoted correctly, would be beneficial to both consumers and installers if such an organisation existed. It could also assist in providing training and a qualification to the trade as yet none exists. Is the IkBBI that organisation? I don’t know. Are the IKBBI prepared to listen to installers to help shape an organisation that they would want to belong to? I don’t know that either.

I have already post a link to this page on my forum and would hope that others join in the debate.

Kind regards

Lee (woody)

Hi Tim,

Firstly thanks for the opportunity to address the forum. It’s a bit long, however I felt there we a number of key point worthy of addressing.

1 My previous role. The time spent in one of my previous roles was invaluable in understanding many aspects of our industry on many fronts. The experiences gained gave me a great insight into our industry and its challenges (or problems). All learning is good and this only confirmed the need for a professional body dedicated to the KBB installers.
To now have the opportunity to address this and be part of changing our industry (for the better), is fantastic and I think we’ll all agree well overdue.

2 To the point of “and that will never happen”. The iKBBI has been established to represent the needs of its members and help consumers make a more informed choice. Sound simple but there’s a lot to do.
Changes to our industry (and many excellent points have been noted on Forums) CAN happen and here’s my simple list of what’s required….

• You need a number of quality KBB Installers. This group should be amongst the best in the industry (say top 10 – 20% in 5 years).

• You need a professional body that can support this group and work on changing / shaping this industry for the future. It took us 6 months to gain Institute status. This allows us the opportunity to be that body. Forums are of great interest and have confirmed the need for “something”, however they are not the vehicle for making the changes happen.

• An appreciation that change will not happen overnight, however from “little acorns …”.
The dilemma is … if a professional body (let’s call it the iKBBI) does not satisfy the needs of its members then the members should not continue their membership (this is a point of fact that I’m comfortable with). More importantly, if professional KBB installers don’t give it a chance and join in, no (or very little) change will happen and the prophecy becomes a reality. This would be a real shame as our whole industry (including the consumer) will benefit from change.

3 What’s the value in being part of a professional body for KBB installers? I’ll address this simply on one level to get things going. The majority of consumers do not have their KBB products installed by the retailer (they source installations locally). This can be a very difficult task for the consumer and can lead to very unsavoury stories around fitting which are bad for us all … that’s everyone in our industry. We want the iKBBI badge to help the customer make the right decision for their homes. We want the customer to be re-assured they’re using people that care about what they do. We want the consumer to be able to differentiate the professionalism of an iKBBI member from those that don’t really care. We want the consumer to be able to base their decision on a quality service not “cheapest”. We want to help the professional KBB installer when they’re quoting for work….. helping with your conversion or helping the customer to see that “cheapest is not always best”.
As I said this is only one point to consider ….but winning business is very important and we want the best to have the best chance of this.

4 Our industry. Whilst we are all too often recognising the many areas of “what’s wrong” in our industry, it is fair to say that there are many many great installers, retailers, manufacturers, suppliers and organisations out there that all believe we can work better together.
This is evident in that the iKBBI have now gained sponsorship from various businesses in our industry that believe in what we’re trying to do and see the need for change. They’re all great businesses, however some of them are world class leading manufacturers and they’re all very keen to work with our members to better our industry. My point being, it’s not just installers that want change!
Our revised website will be launch in early July where we’ll be announcing our Founder Sponsor (http://www.ikbbi.org.uk)

5 Money making scam? It’s a fair question but could not be further from the truth. Without going into our personal finances (not appropriate I feel), all the directors have put their own time and money into this because they believe in it and want it to happen. Whether that will prove to be crazy remains to be seen, however today there is an Institute for Professional Kitchen, Bedroom and Bathroom Installers and we’re very proud of that.

And finally to Woodys point “I have met and spoken to Mr C on a couple of occasions (before the IKBBI came into being) and have found him to be frank and open with a definite passion for the industry in which we work.” Woody … this is still me, however I’m now part of a professional body whose aspirations and goals are different and we are clearly focused towards the KBB installer and improving our industry…. this could be very exciting?

I hope his offers some constructive food for thought.

Please feel free to call if you have an interested in what we’re doing and I promise if I can’t take the call, I will get back to you.

Cheers for now
Drew – iKBBI Tel 020 7712 1558

Hi Tim, Drew

The forum is locked not because of choice language (you’d be surprised by the lack of it) but because sometimes members discuss topics of a commercially sensitive nature. And I don’t want to be sued!

There’s no doubt Drew that you have vast experience in the industry and I know that you have some fitting experience but are you fully aware of what the problems installers today deal with? If so how? In your previous role how would the Ikbbi have dealt with the problems you came across? Does the Ikbbi plan to stand up against the nationals on issues such as employment law (this does in a small way apply to the self employed as well as the employed)? I could list many a case where installers have been unfairly and illegally treated.

Although the Ikbbi wish to represent kitchen bedroom and bathroom fitters it would be fair to say that the organisation would mostly be made up of kitchen installers. I’d estimate that there are currently approximately six to eight thousand kitchen installers working across the industry. If you reached you maximum target of twenty percent, with the annual fee of £150, do you think there would be enough funds to achieve the ikbbi’s goals or do you plan to raise fees to help achieve them? And will there be a conflict of interest with your new founder sponsor?

Anybody that risks/invests their own money on a venture deserves the rewards that follow if that venture becomes a success but if you’re institute is truly for the benefit of kbb installers shouldn’t it be a non profit organisation? (This is one of the reasons why Corgi is to lose their franchise next year).

How do you intend to raise public awareness? Logos on vans or a national TV campaign? Most quality installers are busy even in this current climate as they have built a reputation for themselves. What benefit would the ikkbi bring for them? It seems to me that the current criteria for becoming an ikkbi member is quite lax, I don’t see how it differentiates the good from the bad. I admit it would be a logistical nightmare to inspect applicants work but without doing this how can you rate the quality of the applicant? Corgi, NICEIC, NAPIT etc all call out to inspect workmanship as part of the application process.

What recourse would a customer have if an ikkbi member failed to install a product to their satisfaction? What would the ikkbi do for the installer when a customer fails to pay for work carried out?

The ikkbi sounds like a commercial venture out to make money, profits from its members. Part of an ‘old boys network’ linked to those in the industry that will gain from its growth, with very little to offer the sole trader. It sounds cynical but that’s the impression out there.

I think installers need to see a transparent organisation that honestly wants to represent them. If that’s the Ikbbi then I for one would join.

I’m aware of a few other forums, I’ll put out some links to broaden the debate.

I also know drew carter as many other fitters do and while I found him very pleasant to talk to I just can’t help feeling while we need something like the IKBBI where drew’s loyalty would lie , to their sponsors ? their members ? or to the public. We are talking here of yet another layer of bureaucracy that we fitters would have to abide by and another annual fee. I agree whole heartily with Lee’s post and would like drew or one of his colleges to respond to it as lee talks a lot of sense ( to me any way)