Forums › Kitchen DIY Forum › Kitchen DIY Advice › MFI installers who are owed money
This topic has 4 voices, contains 16 replies.
| Author | Posts |
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| Author | Posts |
| November 29, 2008 at 1:44 pm #6946 | |
 Drew iKBBI |
Good afternoon, The demise of MFI has effected many people which includes a large number of installers. We have chosen to take legal advice on behalf of our members and would now like to share this information with anyone involved in this difficult situation. The advice contains Guidance notes & a Template Letter (PDF at bottom of link) which is FREE to anyone effected. Click on the following link: http://www.ikbbi.org.uk/Installer-news.asp We wish all installers involved the very best of luck and hope this may help in some small way. Finally, if you know anyone that may be involved, please feel free to forward this email to them yourself. Regards The iKBBI |
| November 29, 2008 at 8:55 pm #6947 | |
 woody |
I’m no expert but would it be better for mfi installers to group together and claim as one? Maybe they could each put in a small amount that could go towards legal representation? Perhaps the ikbbi could run this as a separate entity? |
| November 30, 2008 at 5:25 pm #6948 | |
|
Drew iKBBI |
Hi Woody, You make a good points and it was something we considered however we don’t believe that trying to recover the debt as a collective will deliver a different result. There would be a cost for legal services (maybe considerable) and we aren’t convinced this will change the priority for installers. What is important is that the administrator is aware of the debt owed to any installer (hence the letter we’ve created). From this point it’s likely things will then take their course and will ultimately come down to how much money is available to be paid out. Cheers Drew P.S. I’ll make myself available to any installer if they feel I could help … even if it’s only to let off a bit. E mail me on drew.carter@ikbbi.org.uk with a phone number and I promise I’ll call. |
| November 30, 2008 at 6:06 pm #6949 | |
 timfoley |
Firstly I want to express my sympathy and support to the MFI fitters. who this week, found themselves out of work and for many, out of pocket with the closure announcement of MFI. On another note it hasn’t been lost on me that for some weeks now there has been a discussion taking place on the Screwfix forum regarding the iKBBI. Although it’s been very interesting and both sides have put forward some very good points relating to the need for an installers institute, I’ll reserve my comments and thoughts on this for another post. |
| December 1, 2008 at 6:56 pm #6950 | |
|
timfoley |
Drew, |
| December 1, 2008 at 9:13 pm #6951 | |
|
woody |
Quote from an ex mfi employee Someone wrote: |
| December 1, 2008 at 10:31 pm #6952 | |
|
Drew iKBBI |
Hi Woody, Tim makes a fair challenge to the iKBBI around further support for MFI installers and your owm post highlights the seriousness of this situation. This is a situation that will be difficult to make good (irrespective of how it’s dealt with) as the "crash" has happened. Moving forward and this is Tim point, might the iKBBI be of help to some (even a small number of installer)? Even with our differences we both believe the idea of a professional body for installers is a good idea and this very sad situation may further strengthen that principle. Can you have a think as to wether we can help and if so how, as we would like to support if we can and will consider anything as a starter. You’ll appreciate we have our own constraints as we build but we can try. Is there an interest for support in your view or would we be wasting our time? Any thoughts are welcomed … Drew |
| December 2, 2008 at 11:10 pm #6926 | |
|
woody |
For MFI fitters that are owed money. I’ve been informed that mfi installers that have outstanding money need to resubmit invoices for unpaid jobs to - MCR This applies to fits unpaid after the 6th October 2008. Hope this helps. |
| December 2, 2008 at 11:15 pm #6927 | |
|
woody |
Hi Drew Your right, the damage has already been done. Will there be anything left in the pot for fitters? I’m afraid that remains to be seen. As I stated above I’m no expert but I can’t help feeling that the subcontractor’s voice is lost in the commotion that is the end of MFI. If these were public sector workers it would be a completely different story. I still believe that it would be a good idea for installers to group together regionally or nationally even if only to raise awareness of their plight. All too often the little man is quickly forgotten when large companies collapse. This sorry saga highlights the unfortunate way in which subcontractors are mistreated. Subcontractors have legal rights especially if they’ve been working for one company for a long period of time. Companies are very much aware of this but chose to ignore and abuse those rights knowing that a lone contractor cannot stand up for him/her self. This is happening on a daily basis. A good example is that of B&poo, they have recently outsourced their fitting service. Installers are facing a 20% reduction in their fitting rates and are expected to return for free to carry out remedials (for other peoples mistakes) when previously they getting a suitable call out charge and remedial fee. This is in direct contravention of The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. But who’s going to challenge them on this? Me? I’d like to but I know I’d never get work from a kitchen company again. Can the ikbbi help? I think you already are. The free legal advice is certainly a start. I believe fitters that are owed money have nowhere to turn. Not only have they lost money owed they are also set to lose money from loss of work booked in their diary. There’s never a good time for this to happen but just before Christmas….Installers in this situation have got to be interested in any support the ikbbi can offer, it’s up to you to decide how far you can go. Whatever the outcome I don’t think you’ll be wasting your time. I believe the next step would be to raise awareness of the situation kbb contractors find themselves in, naming and shaming those that new full well that they were putting contractors livelihoods at risk. Kind regards Lee |
| December 3, 2008 at 12:01 am #6953 | |
|
timfoley |
Lee, |
| December 3, 2008 at 6:06 pm #6956 | |
|
Drew iKBBI |
Hi Lee / Tim, Some great points are being aired and I think the million dollar question is … “Do we try & challenge the mfi situation at the risk of even greater cost and upset or do we take this as the trigger to look to prevent this type of situation from happening again”? I fear the principle of the first point is valid but could be at considerable expense and still presents a risk. After much consideration we are not able to confirm that this challenge would be good use of our members funds or out time…. it’s simply too risky. Positively I do believe the iKBBI has developed … • A sound platform to represent / support installers. We’ve done a lot so far and have members that are benefitting We now ask installers to decide how they think they want their future too look. Do nothing and hope for the best or capitalise on the iKBBI and join now. Either way we’ll respect the decision, however for us to do what we know we can, we need members to join. The risk I believe is very limited. Join for one year and if we don’t add value don’t join again. Join in numbers and within a year we will be a commanding force ….. that’s the position as we see it. For anyone specifically involved in the mfi situation, if you want to phone myself or Damian on 0207 712 1558 we’ll look to help make joining easier. The reality is that without members and their fees we are limited to what we can do. The opposite is also true if we have good support ! Kind regards Drew Lee … we all seem to want this to work. A “leap of faith” from more installers and your support could start this change (for the better)! |
| December 4, 2008 at 8:50 pm #6958 | |
 Nichollsco |
I am a solicitor who specialises in company insolvencies and I have read some of the blogs on this subject. I have also spoken to Tim Foley who has asked me to post a few lines on this forum. As most of you will only know too well usually when a company goes bust there is not a lot you can do about it. The general idea of Administration particularly is that it is meant to be fair to everyone who is owed money (i.e. creditors). Usually this means everyone loses out and maybe a few years later you get 5p in the £. That is all very well and good (i.e. bad) but the devil is in the detail. A company is not allowed to continue trading when it is obvious it is going to go bust. The question is "When was it obvious that MFI would go bust? " This sounds like an easy question but in fact it is not – as you all know yourselves you quite often keep going hoping that something will turn up i.e. that employer will pay, when maybe in your heart you are not sure. So don’t be too hard on businesses that go bust. Most businesses from the largest to the smallest are regularly in one form of trouble or another and in these days there is not business that is safe. Having said all that though MFI may well be different because a lot of people have thought it was bust for a long time! What is probably safe to say is that anyone who installed a kitchen in the ten days before it went into Administration ought to feel particularly cross and I would bet that the directors knew or ought to have known MFI was doomed. During those ten days there was probably insolvency people crawling all over the business working out what to do. If you fitted a kitchen during that period you ought to get paid. This is not a guarantee but it is certainly worth looking at. Outside that ten day period things get a little bit more blurred but the principle is that on some date before it went bust (it might be tens days or twenty or 100) it was obvious that it was going to go bust. Anyone who did work after that date has a special grievance. The first problem is that just because you should have been paid it does not mean that there is any money to do so. Even if you are victim of "wrongful trading" it is usually the liquidator who takes action against the directors to try to claw back the losses of the company after the certain date. This means that when the money comes in it is paid into the general pot and not to you as the victim. This is unfair but it is how it works in the UK. There was a case this year, however, where directors were found to be liable to creditors like you in similar circumstances. This is called "piercing the corporate veil" and it means getting around the privilege of limited liability. It is not easy but it can be done. The next thing to keep in mind is that litigation is incredibly expensive. Think of your daily charge to install a kitchen and multiply it by 10 and you get an idea of how much this might cost per day. All litigation is time-consuming because everything has to be absolutely correct. There are usually dozens of documents and just keeping track of them etc can cost thousands. Also you might end up having to pay the other side’s costs and your own if you lose (although you can insure against this and there are funding options to help mitigate the risks). But suffice to say if you are owed say £4,000, unless it is really straightforward, it is rarely cost effective to litigate. In this case taking a case against the directors of MFI or the Administrators etc you are talking serious money. Even just to look at whether there was the chance of a case would cost probably £5000. After that, if there was a good chance of successfully sueing anyone you are talking tens of thousands. This would not be an easy case. If there are 5000 installers each owed £1000 then it might be worth each of them putting £200 each into a fighting fund (£50 each might be ok but the problem is it is expensive to get in 5000 x £50 and then returning £10 to each one at the end! Just administering the fund would be bad enough). Some firms specialise in this kind of mass action litigation. The best course of action unfortunately is to learn from this experience and be on your guard in the future. Always obey the following rules: I know these are easy for me to say and difficult for you to follow but try your best – and good luck. One other thing – if you lose money in a collapse then don’t refuse to work for the Administrators as a matter of principle. Working for Administrators is probably the best credit risk you can have because you get paid before they do and they always try to ensure there is enough for them to get paid. They might also allow you to charge a bit above your normal rate to help you claw back some of your lossses. Remember it is not the Administrators fault the business went bust. Hope this helps. Nicholls & Co. |
| December 4, 2008 at 11:04 pm #6959 | |
|
timfoley |
James, |
| December 8, 2008 at 9:32 pm #6964 | |
|
woody |
MFI administration report. The download is a little slow. MFI Fitters – Check to see if you are on the creditors list. If you’re not get your proof of debt claim in ASAP – see page 62. Drew – If it is truly the ikbbi’s intention to improve the kbb industry for installers and their customers – to change things “for the better” – Then I would lend my support and help in any way that I can. |
| December 10, 2008 at 7:49 pm #6965 | |
|
Drew iKBBI |
Hi Lee, Thanks for the post (good information). To answer your point …. Someone wrote: Drew – If it is truly the ikbbi’s intention to improve the kbb industry for installers and their customers – to change things “for the better” – Then I would lend my support and help in any way that I can. This is exactly what we’re looking to do and as you’ll know this is a big task. More importantly it will take a greater number of members to give us the authority and recognition we would want for our members. This would also allow us the opporunity to work with our members with other service providers, retailers or manufacturers if that’s the right thing to do. A healthy membership will command this opportunity. More members will also allow us to do more for consumers by matching consumers with their local iKBBI member. Have a look at our Find-a-Member scheme that we have been working very hard on due to circumstances we are all aware off …. http://www.ikbbi.org.uk/consumer-find-a-member.asp (only test data has been loaded) We have also invested heavily in an "e marketing" campaign which when completed will give us a considerable audience every day. Again we’re looking to provide a positive workstream for good professionals. We would be delighted if you would join the iKBBI. This is where you could help us most. If you feel you could do more beyond this then we’re all ears. I hope this makes sense and you’ll give us a chance to prove our worth. Thanks and please feel free to call Drew 0207 712 1558 |
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