I have read with great interest the submissions in this section -

I am very interested in becoming a kitchen fitter - having just finished running a multi national company (travelling the world too much) I now want to get back to my roots in Cov and

do a hands on skilled type job - out of the rat race as it were. I am an ex engineering apprentice, with a couple of degrees to my name - have project managed warehouse fit outs

around the world. In addition have fitted well over 10 kitchens for friends and family in the past - fully competent at plumbing - have a workshop/toolbox full of the correct

equipment. So what is the best way to get started ? and are there any formal training schemes available ? always believe that training gives you that extra bit of competence - tricks

of the trade etc... and above all credibility in the eyes of the customer/client. Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Hello,

First time on the forum. Have read some interesting posts. It is a good time for debate as there is a lot effecting kitchen fitters and kitchen installations at the moment.

At 34 years of age I believe that I am one of the last of my kind. A kitchen fitter! Like most others I trained in a specific trade and moved into kitchen installations. My particular

trade being carpentry/joinery C&G route, apprentice to my father.

I have been installing kitchens for the last ten years. During this time I have become Corgi registered, WRAS approved plumber and NICEIC approved electrical contractor (C&G route

two evenings a week for the last couple of years). I might add that unlike other professions there were no grants available!

Can kitchen fitting be classed as a trade? I have my doubts. Kitchen fitting is multi trade and therefore knowledge of each trade must be obtained for a safe installation. In my

opinion, putting together a course that combines gas, water, electrics and carpentry in a short period of time will lead to a ‘dumbing down’ of the trades.

A very good example of this is the introduction of Part P. Intended to improve the safety of electrical installations in kitchens, bathrooms and outside locations in domestic

premises. To prove compliance with BS7671 the electrical installer will, from the 1 Jan 2005, self certify all work.

The problem and it is a big problem is that many kitchen fitters will not be able to comply. So to help the fitter through this difficult time they have condensed three years of

electrical training into one week. That’s four industry-recognised qualifications condensed into a one-week course!

Going back to my original point (last of my kind). If I were a carpenter looking to become a kitchen fitter today, faced with the expense of training, annual enrolment fees,

insurance, tools etc etc etc. I’d most definitely stay a carpenter.

On a different note.
I have noticed that advice has been given to people wanting to install gas & electrical appliances? I believe that the only advice to be given is “ getting a competent person

belonging to a recognised trade organisation to carry out the installation”. I think you’ll find similar advice in the manufactures instructions.

Kind regards
&
A happy New Year!

Adrian, Woody.

Welcome to our forum and thank you for your valuable contributions to this discussion. Before I respond to some of the points you raise I would like to update visitors on the

introduction of a training scheme for kitchen installers as well as wishing you all a Happy New Year.

Nothing much to report yet and although the wish of those charged with running the scheme was to have it up and ready before Christmas, it seems little progress has been made.
Accreditation for those wishing to administer training has not been forthcoming although a number of companies, ourselves included, have shown an interest.
Adrian, I believe that answers your post and I will update you when a training course is available to you.

Woody,

To begin, you are not the last of your kind but you do have an impressive list of qualifications under your belt which is commendable as it shows your commitment to customer safety

which, although you seem to disagree, is of paramount importance on articles and posts featured on this website. I wish to emphasise that only those who are competent in both gas and

electrics should undertake the work and I have never advised to the contrary.
I happen to agree with most of your sentiments and strongly advise consumers to hire a competent person to undertake any gas or electrical work when installing a new kitchen.

My bone of contention, with your very eloquently put post, is that, although I understand your resentment at those able to attain parity with your own lengthier training process

within a matter of weeks, it is a great improvement on the current situation, whereby those with little or no knowledge of electrics and gas can place the safety of the consumer in

danger without any legislation or accountability.

If you consider that associated electrics and gas within the kitchen environment are, by their nature, administered and applied similarly in all kitchens and have, for many years

prior to industry regulation been successfully undertaken by many competent installers, then it is possible to condense them into a specifically designed course.
The anomaly in reading your post Woody, is that guys such as you are best placed to offer this training if you so wished. Perhaps then the sense of injustice at having trained years

to achieve your current status would be quelled by using your talent to train others.

Kitchen fitting, in my opinion, can be offered as a separate trade, albeit multi-skilled, and can be made available on a two tier basis of those having to undergo assessment and those

wishing to train in the various modules required to achieve competent certification. Thereafter regular assessment of graduates will ensure a high standard is maintained.

As for expense, then it is up to the individual to consider whether the ends justifies the means and in the case of kitchen installation, the rewards are, and will continue to be

substantial, particularly for those with accreditation.

Hi Tim

Thanks for the reply. I think that on the whole we share the same concerns/views when it comes to kitchen installations.

Quote
“I understand your resentment at those able to attain parity with your own lengthier training process within a matter of weeks.”

Quite simply, installers will not achieve an equal level of skill and knowledge by attending a short condensed course. I appreciate that the hours of an evening over a couple of years

that I spent attending college could be condensed into a shorter period but not in weeks. The content will not be there. You also need time to digest the information given to you. Are

you aware of the EAL course to help installers comply with part P? Those that I know that have taken the course have come out more confused than when they went in.

Quote.
“For many years prior to industry regulation been successfully undertaken by many competent installers”

‘Ignorance is bliss’. For many years I thought I was competently installing gas, water and electrics until I educated myself in those areas. How many installers know the effect an

extractor may have on an open flue boiler? Correctly install an outside tap? Check earthing arrangements and appropriate RCD protection before installing a socket? The list goes on.

I may have my doubts about kitchen fitting being accepted as a trade but I feel it is obtainable. When people ask me what I do, I reply, I am a kitchen fitter? I don’t really know

what else to say. Carpentergasfitterplumberelectricain seems a bit of a mouthful! While at the moment I can charge for all trades, if kitchen fitter becomes accepted as a trade, does

it mean I will only be able to charge for the one?

I also believe that training should be made available for those that wish to become kitchen fitters. Courses must be well thought through and be comprehensive in all areas. Maybe

different levels could be achieved as you progress through each trade i.e. a first grade kitchen fitter would be considered competent in carpentry, second grade competent in carpentry

and plumbing and so on. I believe experience in a particular trade is helpful before moving into kitchen fitting.




Cheers

Woody

Yes Woody I'm aware of the EAL Training Course. The interesting and accommodating thing about the course is that it has no criteria for entry and is

specifically designed for those wishing to become domestic installers regardless of their qualifications. This is the point I was making in my previous post and allows those wishing

to work in a specific environment to recieve training designed for that purpose, in addition it allows those who are already competent in certain areas to undertake training in

specifically chosen modules.

However I do agree that the relevance of the training in certain courses are lost on me but I suspect a course such as the EAL which was devised by Corgi, NICEIC and ECA. has to

include a number of elements liable to cause some confusion although it is worrying to learn that many of those graduating are even more confused than before. Something must be amiss

if this is the case and should be addressed if it is to be an effective training method.

Yes, ignorance is bliss but the introduction of a standard will no longer allow that to be a luxury for those it now applies to. I suspect that most installers, aware of the

consequences, will be more than happy to gain exclusive status in order to attain the rewards for doing so.

Woody, I too suffered from the same confusion having served my time as a plumber but from gaining my City and Guilds over twenty years ago I plied my "trade" as a kitchen installer

and also used the term in response to the question, what do you do? I can't really grasp the point of your question here but if you are to be considered competent at all trades as a

qualified kitchen installer then you can certainly charge for any work you undertake no matter the scope providing you are qualified to do so.

I also believe that training should be made available for those that wish to become kitchen fitters. Courses must be well thought through and be comprehensive in all

areas. Maybe different levels could be achieved as you progress through each trade i.e. a first grade kitchen fitter would be considered competent in carpentry, second grade competent

in carpentry and plumbing and so on. I believe experience in a particular trade is helpful before moving into kitchen fitting.

Couldn't agree with you more here and the streaming of a class of qualification is a good idea that would, I believe, work well. It will also provide an option for those not wishing

to undertake gas and electrical work in the kitchen.
It's good that, installers, the voices in the front line, have open and frank discussion on how a standard can work effectively. Only then will opinions count when decisions are

made. It's good too that you see it right to accommodate those less able than yourself to enter a satisfying and rewarding occupation.

Hi All

I've been reading the various & numerous threads on the subject of installer standards/qualifications, as

a 'site/project manager' whos been in the industry for over 20 years I

would welcome an idustry qualification for

installers, sorry Miles.

I find employing fitters, regardless of references or how well they talk a fit, a bit like

Clementine roulette at times, the only real test without an industry qualification is to try

the fitter out & keep a

close eye on him.
But bearing in mind that I might have up to 10 jobs starting at the begining of the week this can mean

you are pretty thinly spread.

A recognised industry qualification would give me that much more confidence that the

fitter was at least capable of doing the basics to an acceptable standard.

Nice site read a lot of the post's with

great interest.

Hi - I've read many of

these posts with interest as I'm keen to improve my own

prospects so this is my first post on the subject.
I spent 24 years working in plastic injection moulding, running a small

family business. Sadly, as with many manufacturing activities in the UK, things became too tough and the

business was

sold. After 18 months of various jobs I paid for a 'Total Electrical' course (4 weeks) - this gave me C & G 2381 &

2391, PAT Testing & 'Part P'. I could

in theory call myself a 'spark' but I'm not naiive enough to think I

have the experience or credibility to do so. BUT at least this gives me a start.
Since then I've been following the

(slow) progress of the KBSA in setting up the National Training Group. I hope we'll see some course outlines soon and

training providers too as I

believe there are excellent opportunities for those people willing to achieve the required

standards.
I want to earn (decent money) and am prepared to learn in order to do so.

Tim - very good site you have

created and I look forward to hearing of progress with KBSA/NTG prospects.

Steve

Steve,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your contribution on this thread but I've

been a little pre-occupied of late on a Trevor MacDonald Tonight project.

For any members interested more information

can be found at the following link http://www.kitchensfitted.co.uk/news/TonightwithTrevorMacDonald.php



Anyway Steve, thank you for your kind comments regarding the site and your acclaim is consistent with the many others

kind enough to drop us a line with the same opinion. Glad we are

considered as such.

To update on the National

Training Group I received a call from a woman, (unfortunately I have forgotten her name, apologies for this), last week and it

appears she was calling me to

alert me to the imminent rolling out of the scheme and to confirm our interest as a

training provider.

As I was in the car driving at the time, (Handsfree phone operation of course), I asked that she e

-mail me on further details. I have to say, that like numerous other such calls from

those in authority over the past

twelve months, more information was never forthcoming.

It is most frustrating that the situation remains at Status Quo

after all the indications were that the scheme would, before now, have been firmly established.

I now really don't

expect there to be any imminent change to the situation and it appears there will be a number of future meetings at whatever

hotel they regularly take place, to

discuss whatever they have been discussing for the past 8 months and progress has

not been on the agenda during this time methinks.

I am aware that many of the protagonists read this forum, and in

particular this thread, but it appears again that although they have a ready made foundation of views and opinions to



make progress it certainly hasn't been apparent.

As you may know, we were extremely interested in becoming

involved in such a scheme and I believe an e-mail I sent to the KSA as it was then known, in April 2002, may have acted as a



catalyst for it's developement but since this time the phrase "dragging their feet" seems to be a euphamism for the

slow paced reality.

As we undertake new build installations nationwide it is imperative that we employ those capable of

doing the work to a high standard and we currently have to undertake our own

vetting procedures, which, even with the

best will in the world, are not foolproof.

However, my own aims to offer up the training for those who wish to become

accredited yet require a more intense training course, i.e. young people, people like you Steve, wishing for

a change

of carreer with an interest in entering kitchens installation, are being thwarted by the current situation and this is a shame

for all those who have shown an interest

through our website.

We have a premises in place and we have an ideal

opportunity to move forward with the assistance of those charged with the developement of the scheme. Unfortunately what we

don't

have is progress and I apologise to those who have applied via the website for my assumption that a scheme

would now be in place.

Hi Tim

Thanks for

responding to my post. I also received a phone call from a bloke (Renee Mascari) who said she was based at the FFINTO office in

Nottingham. Her remit is to establish which

organisations intend to run courses in kitchen design, sales &

fitting. However, it sounds like it could be several weeks before even a pilot course is up and running. She said

she

would keep me posted.

On a different subject - I watched the program presented by Michael Nicholson where you and your

team did a complete renovation on a terraced house. Very impressive result - you must

have worked extremely hard given

the timescale. Whether Prescott & his ODPM will listen remains to be seen I guess.

What views do you and others

have on so called 'modular housing'?
In the Sunday Times recently there was a feature on a German designed and built

modular house system (see www.modularesbauen.com) which looks very interesting, especially the cost of

it - £35K for 4

units (2 units stacked on top of 2 base units) plus the land.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Steve

Steve,

I've also been contacted by FFINTO regarding the progress, or no progress as the reality is, of the moves to

get training underway. I have asked for the minutes of meetings that have

taken place and was invited to apply for

membership of the sub group.
As you may have guessed from my current mood in the forum, I have never received any details

of the meetings nor have I been sent an application to join the sub group.
Quite frankly I'm happy about this as I would

not be content to have participated in such a slow and inactive process.

Regarding the Tonight programme, yes it took a

lot of hard graft, co-ordination and determination to complete in such a short timescale and it now seems the programme may be

affecting

policy. I hear that the latest to come out in favour of refurbishment is Prince Charles, no surprise there,

but it does keep the issue alive and highlights the potential damage not

only to the local heritage but to the

communities that the government are indirectly breaking up as a result of the policies they have adopted.

I think most

people fall into two categories when it comes to design, you are either a traditionalist or your leanings are more

contemporary and I respect that difference. To

categorise my own leanings I prefer a modern look but this can involve

the use of traditional materials such as wood, stainless steel and granite.

The most important factor is to ensure that

the design, whatever it may be, is in keeping with the house and the location. Although it's your own choice, and again I

respect the

difference, an AGA range cooker would look and feel totally out of synch in a contemporary apartment just

as UPVC white windows would in a 17th century Surrey manor house. Horses for

courses though and what matters more is

that you, the occupier, are happy with the outcome.

The Modular house link you have posted does not seem to be working

but at the prices you have quoted I'd be in favour if it was of a good specification as it would offer a greater



opportunity to first time buyers if they so chose. Not sure what Prince Charles would think but I put people above

heritage and if buying a modular house offers the less fortunate of

us an opportunity to own their own home it can

only be worth consideration.

Tim

timfoley wrote:an AGA range cooker would look

and feel totally out of synch in a contemporary apartment

And this highlights the mistake that so many

people make when designing/choosing/specifying kitchens.

There is one, and only one, overriding priority with

kitchens.

A KITCHEN IS A PLACE OF WORK.

It is

for the preparation of meals - everything else, be it form or function, must be subservient to that.

If an Aga is what

works for you as a cooker, then an Aga is what you should have, and to hell with whether it looks out of place in a

contemporary apartment. If that matters to someone then either their priorities are skewed, or they shouldn't have a

kitchen.

Of course appearance matters, of course people want their kitchen to look good. Of course form often follows

function, and I can drool over fabulous looking stuff just like the next person, but ultimately, if it doesn't

work properly then it is useless.

Ban -all-sheds,

Not sure what

your point is here but I beg to differ.
I agree that a kitchen has to be functional but the importance of the kitchen has

changed dramatically over the years and now it's design plays just as important a role for most people.

The kitchen is

now seen and used as the central hub of the home where a cook is not confined behind closed space only to re-appear when the

dinner is put on the table.

It is now a social space that plays host to family, friends and visitors and achieving

this, I believe, is what is uppermost in peoples thoughts when they consider their new purchase.

Of course there are no

rules or regulations regarding the blend of styles or colours one can use but it was my own humble opinion that seemed to

rattle your cage. Of course function is important and this site only ever advises the use of quality products that offer the

consumer both longevity and value for money but aesthetics is just as important a consideration today.

Sorry - I didn't mean to overreact like that, but I see so

many products these days (not just kitchen related) where "design" has become so predominant that serious functional flaws

have been introduced, sometimes to the point of rendering the item almost useless. I hear of people willing to compromise

electrical safety because they don't want their posh walls defaced by control switches.

However - if I may re-iterate

without you thinking I'm having a go at you. Please insert "IMO" into what I've written below wherever you feel it should

go.

It is all my opinion. It is an opionion I hold very strongly, it is an opinion that I will argue for, it's an

opinion that I hold so strongly that I regard different opinions deeply flawed, but at the end of the day it is an

opinion.

timfoley wrote:Not sure what your point is here but I beg to differ.
I agree that a kitchen

has to be functional but the importance of the kitchen has changed dramatically over the years and now it's design plays just

as important a role for most people.

The their priorities are twisted. However important the appearance

is it must never, ever be allowed to take precedence over function.

The kitchen is now seen and used

as the central hub of the home where a cook is not confined behind closed space only to re-appear when the dinner is put on

the table.

Indeed not, but the cooking is the most important thing that goes on in the kitchen. All

other uses are incidental, and all other priorities are lesser.

It is now a social space that plays

host to family, friends and visitors and achieving this, I believe, is what is uppermost in peoples thoughts when they

consider their new purchase.

Then their priorities are twisted. A kitchen is a place of work. If you

can combine other uses with it then fine, as long as you do not restrict, in any way, the degree to which if fulfils its

primary role.

Of course there are no rules or regulations regarding the blend of styles or colours

one can use but it was my own humble opinion that seemed to rattle your cage.

Sorry - I really wasn't

having a go at you personally.

Of course function is important and this site only ever advises the

use of quality products that offer the consumer both longevity and value for money but aesthetics is just as important a

consideration today.

Æsthetics are important, but they should not be as

important.

Ban-All-Sheds,

We have more in common

than you think. I would never advocate design as being the predominant factor but the two, design and function, can marry up

in importance don't you think?

I do feel that consumers, whether we like it or not, are attracted first by the look of

a product and I agree this is somewhat misguided, but sites such as this and UK Whitegoods promote the use of quality goods

and service and hopefully as more people become aware of our presence, they will research the capabilities and the history of

the appliances and cabinets they are about to choose.

If you look around this site you will only see positive reference

to a limited number of manufacturers despite attempts to steer it in another direction that would undoubtedly generate us a

greater income. That will not change but there are a growing number of appliance manufacturers, new and existing, that offer

good looking products that don't perform as they should. Unfortunately if a cheaper price tag is linked to them, and

invariably it is, then consumers are attracted by this foremost.


As for cooking being the most important thing

that goes on in the kitchen, no-one is disputing that, but the role of a kitchen has changed to accomodate modern design and

it is a far more pleasurable experience than it once was.
A consumer is looking for design that not only incorporates

quality products but allows them input that reduces the boredom factor once associated with cooking in a scullery devoid of a

proper light source, time saving accessories and, as we spend more time in a kitchen than most other rooms, a place to

socialise in.

Well, the first kitchen installation course arising out of the developement of the National Training

Group has been available since September. A five day course, and to quote the organisers Webstraining,

"The course will be a 5 day competence course aimed at people already employed within the design or

installation sector, wanting to gain some formal recognition of their skills"

According to the NTG

website www.kbbntg.com the course has been a huge success and courses are now running monthly.

Well, forgive my

scepticism, but a course lasting five days from 9.00am to 4.30pm that costs £1000+vat and where the organisers have been good

enough to at least list a number of local hotels for non-Nottinghamshire applicants to reside at for four nights, strikes me

as being a tad expensive and a little inappropriate for existing installers who don't require to be trained in the first

place.

Far better in my opinion, to utilise the skills of an existing workforce as on-site mentors to train those

wishing to join the industry. Let those wishing to utilise the capabilities of graduates to profer from the skills aquired as

a mentee, invest in their training and employ them thereafter.

As for existing installers, on site assessment will

better determine their skills and prove much cheaper for them in the process.

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts

of forum members on this and, in particular, any existing installers.
,