For the first time ever over 60% of the kitchen

industry including Magnet,
MFI, B&Q, MKD Holdings, KBSA and FIRA are in discussion to explore ways of
achieving industry standards for kitchen installers.

I'd be interested in any comments or opinions on this subject.

As things stand the second largest expenditure anyone makes after a house and possibly a car is your kitchen and currently anyone can set up as an installer regardless of their

qualifications or ability to do the job.

In light of the horror stories relating to cowboy fitters do you think this
is a good initiative and how best can this be implemented ?

How have you chosen your fitter or was the fitting part of the package when you bought the kitchen ?

Were you happy with the standard and what qualities do you look for when
choosing a person who will be part of your household for a week or more ?

All contributions will be most welcome.

If you are an installer we'd value your thoughts on this subject.

Tim.

Tim,
I think we’d all like some kind of standards for fitters. With the ever increasing amount of dodgy D.I.Y programmes on TV I’m sure a lot of us feel apprehensive when hiring people for

tasks around your home.

How about a list of things to ask prospective fitters?
One thing I didn’t think about was do I get two quotes? one for a rigid fitting and one for flat pack? I only thought about this after you posted in my “Bella Cucina” thread. And if

so how much cheaper should a rigid instillation with a full plan be over a flat pack etc?
You can always ask to see previous work I suppose, but I’m always wary of ringers.
The thing is you have to trust someone sometime but the more information we have to be prepared with the better.

I coudn't agree with you more and there are no failsafe devices in

place to ensure that you will receive a quality service but good preparation and research perhaps are the best precautions you can undertake.

It seems crazy that to employ a kitchen installer to fit your kitchen is a game of chance due to a lack of industrial standards and there seems to be status quo in the negotiations to

create proper training.

As things currently stand anyone can set up as a kitchen installer. Working in a domestic environment doesn;t require that you have a CIS status (A pre-requisite for site trades).

You can have the minimum of tools and ability yet the maximum of gall and ply your trade as a kitchen installer without accountability anywhere in the land.

The answer I believe, lies in training and when this is recognised and funded by the government and retailers we might then have a situation whereby school leavers can apply to a

training course that will offer them a satisfying and rewarding career.

In addition to this it would offer some very capable and knowledgeable installers an opportunity to pass on their skills to a younger generation.

Being a kitchen installer doesn't end there though and just as manual skills are important, people skills are essential and training would have to incorporate this element.

As a consumer you could be fairly confident that a graduate of such training would offer a quality service backed by appropriate guarantees.

This is something of a goal for me and I contacted the KSA regarding this in April 2002. The following is an excerpt my correspondence

"Surely there is a case for industry standards amongst installers and a vetting procedure along with proper training will not only benefit potential

kitchen buyers but more importantly your members.
Currently there is an abundance of under qualified fitters calling themselves kitchen installers for the purpose of obtaining work from retailers who only become aware of the

inadequacies of their new fitter when a customer rings to complain ater their initial installation.
Kitchen Installation is and should be recognised as a separate trade and to attain this means investment in training installers. The KSA could take the lead by allowing installers

entry under a vetting procedure."

It was after this correspondence and earler this year I first heard of the efforts beng undertaken by the KSA and the other retailers to introduce a standard but as yet I have no

further news and can only believe that a staus quo exists.

I will invite them to respond to this post and I'm sure the answer will be of great interest to our site visitors.

When you consider that you have to be multi-skilled to undertake the work this is a crazy situation that ultimately provides TV with great viewing figures and some consumers with a

living nightmare.

As a follow up on this subject we received the following

message today from the Chief Exectutive of the KBSA, Graham Hayden.

"Thank you for the opportunity. We still have some work to do before we can publish a definitive training strategy for installers but we have made great progress through the FIRA

installers group which will be meeting next week to firm up some proposals. Once we have made decisions then I think it will be useful to have KBSA linked to this part of your site.
I will keep you advised"

Graham Hayden

The reults should be interesting and we will update as soon as we are informed.

So the big kitchen suppliers want to have

standards for fitters to work to?
No doubt the fitter will have to pay to join there scheme
So anyone that does not agree with these little money for the boys scemes such as guild of master craftsmen etc will automatically look dodgy in the eyes of a prospective client

because they won't pay to join.

I have my own standards to work to eg the highest i can give. I like to look back at my work and be totally happy and know that no one could have done better.

I just read the link properly after posting my last reply. So the

reply was incomplete. Therefore i shall elaborate.

Firstly Kitchen fitting is not a seperate trade in its own right. It is at least 3 trades or 4 trades if you add tiling as well.

Fitting of units and worktops is a carpenters job that is what i am qualified to do. My finished job will be better than any multi-skilled kitchen fitter, not qualified or trained as

a carpenter.

Plumbing, gas and electrics are all trades in there own rights also.

I can alter plumbing but normally i have my plumber do that and any gas work.

I can add extra sockets, lighting but still have work checked by my electrician.

I can tile to a very good standard walls and floors, i hate doing it though.

Apart from tiling all these other trades come in to work whilst i am fitting units etc, so the job does not take any longer. What you do get though is specific jobs done by specific

people who have done at least 3 yrs training in their feild.

The problem with standards has been bought about in my opinion by companies who want a kitchen fitter to be a carpenter, plumber, gas installer, electrician and tiler all rolled into

one. To Continue

Continued from last
I have never seen a kitchen fitted by an allrounder that has not had problems. Even if the client has not seen a problem.
Bad scribes, wrongly wired stainless steel socket outlets, bad attention to detail in fitting of units, the list is endless.
See a kitchen that is fitted by the various qualified trades and 99% of the time it is a totally different story.

I fit bespoke hand made kitchens ranging in price of up to 60 or £70,000 i am a city and guilds carpenter/joiner and have been self-employed for 16 yrs. When i was asked by this firm

to install for them, i had to fit my first kitchen with one of their carpenters so that he could assess my work and report back wether to employ me or not. By the way they employ a

plumber, tiler and electrician for the other work.

Maybe this is the approach that kitchen fitting companies should take. Ie make a new fitter work with an existing fitter for the first kitchen.
Why can't companies offer on job training for younsters.

As for chancers that advertise as kitchen fitters, well you will always have these in every trade.

I have

never seen a kitchen fitted by an allrounder that has not had problems. Even if the client has not seen a problem.

Miles,

I agree there are many capable and skilled carpenters out there with a good knowledge of kitchen installation but I think you are doing a disservice to a larger number of quality

kitchen installers who ply their trade using the numerous skills required to install a kitchen.
In stark contrast to your quote above, I have, over many years, witnessed and installed many kitchens that are problem free and fitted to the highest of standards by a host of good

installers.

The distinction lies in the fact that potential carpenters are offered the luxury of training in centres nationwide and acquire certification to utilise their skills with wood after

completion. Kitchen Installers with all round skills relevant to the environment in which they work should also be considered a specialist trade and only then will the current

confusion among wary employers (retailers, private clients,or deveopers), diminish.

While I recognise that many carpenters like yourself are fully qualified and possess the necessary skills to install cabinetry to the highest standard,
your suggestion that seperate trades be employed to complete the work throws up a range of difficulties not least of all co-ordination of a work schedule that suits the client and

provides a flowing synchronisation to the job. Many firms who, in the past, have implemented this method, recognised these problems and quickly reverted back to hiring kitchen

installers. I don't doubt that those companies who run an installation service and employ seperate trades can be successfull, but it takes a great deal of organisation, scheduling

and co-ordination to work well.
As skills required to install a kitchen are many, a scheme that offers training in the necessary skills would generate specialsists capable of complete installation. Currently a

shortage exists and herein lies the problem. Almost 1 million new kitchens are fitted in the UK every year and as the rewards for quality installation are relatively high this

attracts a number of people incapable of undertaking the work. Unlike carpenters or plumbers, kitchen installers have no formal proof of their skills and many, as you later suggested

in your post, have learned their skills from working alongside experienced mentors.

So anyone that does not agree with these little money for the boys scemes such as guild of master craftsmen etc will automatically look dodgy in the eyes of a

prospective client because they won't pay to join.

You may be correct in your opinion here and many may concur with your sentiments but the promotion of certain, not all, schemes, offers the consumer protection and the trader

exclusivity. There will always be companies who expoit this at the expense of tradesmen but it is our job to scrutinize what they offer before we subscribe. Proper and regular vetting

carried out by knowledgeable, experienced craftsmen can prove extremely beneficial to those who meet the standards.

I think the retailers and the goverment have a role to play here and I feel that youth training should be funded by both , but to determine the chaff from the wheat with regard to

existing installers, a vetting procedure has to be implemented and long term the subscription you pay will prove beneficial. A good example of this is the gas installers scheme that

now benefits only those competent enough to undertake the work.
Where people such as yourself fit in is part of a wider solution. Your skills along with those of other experienced trades can be utilised in the training centres that would offer an

opportunity to school leavers who have ambitions to learn a trade that can offer them a rewarding and satisfying future. In addition to this, it is experienced people from the various

trades that will command a greater respect from those they are vetting.

My finished job will be better than any multi-skilled kitchen fitter, not qualified or trained as a carpenter.

While I admire any person with confidence in their own ability your statement conveys a scathing criticism of a large number of quality installers, who, by the nature of their work

are fitting worktops and cabinets on a far more regular basis than the average carpenter so I totally disagree with your view on this.
Familiarity with a product will ensure high standards from those who work regularly with them and this is true of kitchens.
A product induction training period is becoming more popular with certain manufacturers who are keen to provide further investment in their goods by way of utilising their own time

and knowledge to familiarise installers, with their products, This is a huge step in the right direction and one to be welcomed as it not only eradicates teething problems but conveys

a sense of commitment to those they train and loyalty in return.

The problem with standards has been bought about in my opinion by companies who want a kitchen fitter to be a carpenter, plumber, gas installer, electrician and

tiler all rolled into one.

This is achievable and demand from both retailers and consumers suggest that this is their preference. The correct way to achieve success is by creating an industry standard and

pioneering a training scheme to attract people whether they be carpenters, plumbers, school leavers or anyone who feels capable of learning the skills required to become a "qualified

kitchen installer".

Hello all, first time

posting.

I've been installing kitchens for 16 years, previously I worked as a time served engineer for 24. I've also had the hobby of making furniture for best part of 40 years.

I've been advertising and getting work, I'm not busy all the time but have no wish to be, for the time I work I earn a decent living and wish I had not wasted 24 years in

engineering.

Now for my reason to post, I have no intention of registering with any body whatever they are called and will under no circumstances whatsoever pay membership fees etc.

I turn out a good job for a reasonable price, apart from gas I do it all myself and will continue to do so until I retire.

Once compulsary registration starts, prices will go up and I then expect to be very busy, so can retire earlier than planned.

I have no training or qualifications but am NOT a cowboy and have never been, I do the best I can and my customers are by & large very happy with their new kitchens.

Anything that gets rid of the cowboys is only to be welcomed but lets make sure that for whatever reason it does lose competent people in the process.

Joe,

Welcome to the forum. It's great to see this issue is arousing such interest and particularly from the more experienced fitters like yourself.
I wouldn't expect any capable tradesmen to welcome with open arms the prospect of shelling out a subscription to maintain their status but there has to be a solution and any solution

would involve a fee to be able to work.
I see guys such as yourself playing a role for those school leavers wishing to enter the trade and I'm sure that your services in this respect will not come free of charge.

You say that "anything that gets rid of the cowboys is only to be welcomed but lets make sure that for whatever reason it doesn't lose competent people in the process"

Let's find the "something" that does that but any solution will cost money. we have to accept that.

Hello Tim

You have a great site here.

People like me with no qualifications are going to find it hard to prove that we know what we are doing. In my view the only option will be an inspection of my completed work. I have

no problem with that but who will pay? It will end up being administered by loads of people who love paperwork and who will have no knowledge of the industry.

I believe that to carry out gas work & electrics, the work has to be done to a mimimium standard and that people engaged in these industries should be regulated. From what I

gather it costs quite a bit to be CORGI and they get very little in return.

The biggest cause of problems in kitchens is caused by the supplying companies, in particular the major ones. It's up to them to sort out their problems and stop taking on anyone

who knocks on their door and says he is a kitchen fitter, then sort out the design side, my own thoughts on that are, you cannot design a kitchen if you havn't a clue how to fit one.

What is needed is a registration card, with a picture, name & address. This could be issued by trading standards free of charge. Everybody needs to be made aware of it and that

any problems will be logged against the card, it's then up to the customer to pay a nominal fee to run a check, of course it will only work if a customer who is unhappy lets them

know.

I do realise I've made it over simple but there is really no need for an over complicated & expensive system, but that never has been or never will be the way we do things in

this country.

Sorry that I have gone on a bit.

Joe,

Having no qualifications is not the criteria in proving your quality of work and anyone who assesses your work must have a working knowledge of what to look for. No-one enjoys being

judged by their peers but it is the only way to distinguish the wheat from the chaff.

It is costly to hold Corgi registration but in return members get exclusivity and esteem for the criteria they had to meet. In addition they receive respect from a public more

confident than before to employ a competent installer.

The same can apply to kitchen installers and there is, like plumbers, a huge shortage of quality fitters capable of high standard work and skills.

I disagree with your comments on designers and have personal experience of working with some top class designers who wouldn't know how to hammer a nail home. If they do have a

failing it lies in the fact that no barriers exist in their visions for your kitchen or any room for that matter. Truth is, we all know they do exist and this should be picked up on

the survey and in my own opinion fitters make the best surveyors.

Your idea on registration cards is I think, the best method but will still require that fitters be assessed. We can't forget the shortage and any facilities designed to asess

existing installers should have an added provision for school leavers who can use their skills to forge a rewarding carreer.

This would require trainers and who knows Joe, maybe that's an option for you and guys like you when you decide to down tools.

One thing is for certain though. To enjoy the facilities of any club you have to pay a membership and this will be no different.

I'm afriad we will have to agree to disagree on some of

this.

Qualifications are a starting point in any trade, experience is what makes a skilled man. We have in recent years become qualification mad in this country, without in a lot of cases

the skills to go with it.

I would be more than happy to have my work assessed, if it was carried out by somebody who knows what they are doing and to my mind that would be somebody with at least 10 years

fitting behind them.

I am old enough to remember a time when anybody could work on gas, which looking back was complete madness. CORGI was needed but as well as forcing up prices it has also elevated in a

lot of cases gas fitters to think of themselves near gods.

Finally designers, the qualaty of designer you know is not what most people come in connact with. They are basically salespeople, who just want to sell as much as they can and are in

no way interested in the installation implications.

As I pointed out in my original posting, I did my time in engineering, one of the reasons for it's demise in this country is the change of traditional methods of trianing. Years ago

anybody entering the trade started on the shop floor and worked their way upwards. Things changed and striaght from uni. into the more office bound jobs, with the result over-

engineered and expensive designs which just did not work.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Tim but in my humble opinion a good designer needs to know a great deal about installation before they can do their job 100% and the best way to know,

is to do.

Joe,

It's fine if we have to disagree but I must say that we seem to reached common ground on a number of things here and you may have misunderstood some of my points.

Firstly, I agree that experience and skills counts for more than a piece of paper suggesting so. We also agree that work needs to be assessed and by experienced people.

Just as working on gas was madness prior to regulation the same can be said of an unskilled person unwittingly hired by a consumer to undertake a kitchen that may be the biggest

financial outlay they have ever made.

As for your point regarding designers, I think we need to distinguish those who have a creative vision from a number of planner/salespersons who have been trained to use a CAD system

purely as a company tool for closing a sale. I also think we agree that to undertake a survey correctly a person has to have a good knowledge of the fitting issues including

electrical and plumbing requirements.

Good designers are just that, they can liaise with good surveyors to ensure that good installers can bring their visions to life.

We really don't disagree on much Joe other than our views on subscribing to an industry standard of training and assessment but this would undoubtedly be required. It's only correct

that those who in the long term will benefit, will have to contribute financially to enable the conception

Tim, point taken, we were talking about two entirely different kinds of designers, I'm used to the salesman/cad type and that's where my

gripes are.
As you say we do not disagree on much else.

Who pays will always be a issue with me and I really cannot let go of that one.