Ok Joe,

All I'm sure of is that discussions such as we have on this forum is the only way to finding a solution that suits all, installers, retailers, manufacturers and consumers alike and

there's an important role for people such as yourself and others whose experience cannot fail to be recognised in any new initiative.

I hope you will continue to offer that experience in assisting, as you already, have in answering some of the queries posted here.

Thank you.

As a City and Guilds carpenter of 16 years, I won't be paying either.

I was taught how to fit kitchen units, worktops as part of the City & Guilds, so I already have my training. I have already paid for my proof of training.

I am a carpenter and joiner not a kitchen fitter. When I fit out a kitchen I use City&Guilds electricians and plumbers, so we are all very well qualified. Not in need of training

by a jack of all trades kitchen fitter.

I earn enough money that I don't need to fit kitchens, so if I can never fit another kitchen again so be it. In fact what about the firms that I fit bespoke kitchens for. Presumably

they will no longer be able to employ tradesmen but will have to employ kithcen fitters instead.

That is worrying. A kitchen fitter who has been on a little course being allowed loose on bespoke cabinets.

What is going to happen to Mr DIY? Surely this new scheme means that Mr DIY will no longer be able to install his own kitchen, but will have to pay for a qualified kitchen fitter (

whos probably done a 2 week course) to fit it for him.

Lastly a point for Joe.

You do your own electrics, to 16th edition regs I hope. Next year you are going to have to pay to join a scheme if you want to carry on with the electrical side of things. This falls

under the new Part P of the building regs that are coming out.

Maybe it will cost you £900 per year plus the cost of all booklets and updates.

Well Miles, as a City and

Guilds plumber who worked as a kitchen installer for over 20 years, I see that change is necessary and the consumer and empoyer demand value for money from certified and competent

operatives.
I too was taught how to fit kitchen units and I am big enough to realise I can still learn from others as well as pass on my own knowledge. I paid to learn plumbing which, like

carpentry, gave us specific skills to undertake relevant work.

Why do you object to being assessed in your capacity as a kitchen fitter?

What is your solution to the victims of unskilled fitters who are left without any means of recompense and no assurance of quality workmanship?

You continually tarnish the reputation of "jack of all trades" kitchen fitters but fail to realise that many are, like yourself, trained and competent tradesmen. None are qualified

kitchen fitters as there is currently no such title. The whole point is to create such a title for those wishing to offer confidence to the consumer and the employers.
School leavers with a desire to enter a rewarding trade would have the opportunity to learn these skills from a dedicated training programme delivered by experienced and skilled

professionals and I include those such as yourself here.

If you earn enough outside of kitchens and decide never to fit again as an objection to the necessary changes then that is your prerogative but I think your efforts would be best

suited to participation in any initiative.
You presume that seperate trades would not be employed to undertake kitchen fitting but I see this as a choice for both the customer and the employer who, in the event of change,

would have the opportunity to employ a tradesman/woman specific and suitably qualified to fulfill their needs.

That is worrying. A kitchen fitter who has been on a little course being allowed loose on bespoke cabinets.

I think it's more worrying that you assume they would not be just as capable as yourself and many are time served tradesmen already.

As for Mr DIY, as you put it, he, as everyone else, will have a choice. He can install his cabinetry, employ a Corgi registered fitter/Nicec approved electrician to undertake gas and

electrics in the kitchen or he can be assessed/trained to qualify as a regsitered installer.
He could also employ a qualified kitchen fitting team to undertake all the work if he so chooses.

As a tradesman you can identify a quality installer easier than an unsuspecting consumer so wouldn't it be more fitting to use those skills to assist in a solution by contemplating

participation rather than disintegration?

Part P regulations come into force in early 2004 and will render anyone carrying out associated electrics in the kitchen to be approved and competent to do so. As yet I am unsure of

the cost of the scheme but it is the right move and will offer further protection to the consumer.

Firstly I am not

a kitchen fitter and do not wish to be. As you know I deal with the carpentry and joinery side and use C&G tradesmen for the other tasks.

I object to having my kitchen unit/worktop installation skills assessed because I had these assessed when I did my City & Guilds, and passed the assessment. I have my papers to

say that I am competent in installing kitchen units and worktops to City & Guilds standards.

I feel sorry for people who get ripped off by poor kitchen fitters. However people get ripped off by unqualified painters, mechanics, builders even Harley Street doctors. It is down

to the consumer to do their homework when selecting someone to do a job for them. If they take on people who's qualifications, passed work, experience, reputation, liability

insurance etc they have not checked, then in my opinion. If they are that stupid, they only really have themselves to blame.

As for recompense, what about the small claims court or withholding payment.

Whilst there may be people working as kitchen fitters who have a relevent trade. They are still "jack of all trades" and working as such. I can do electrics and plumbing but

somewhere down the line I will come accross a problem that I cannot deal with because I do not possess the in depth knowledge or training that say, you have as a C&G plumber or my

electrician has as a C&G electrician. I hit problems with bespoke and mass produced units that I can deal with because of my training, but I bet a C&G electrician or plumber

or plasterer would be totally lost. Resulting in a botched job.

There has been questions on the forum from kitchen fitters and some of them concerning the carpentry aspect are so simple, but they are stuck.

You can create a title for kitchen fitters but they will still only be partly qualified in 3 or 4 trades. or. qualified in 1 trade and part qualified in the others. They are still

going to have kitchens where they are stuck and so have to botch to overcome a problem.

School leavers who wish to become electricians do need academic ability. If the electrical side of the kitchen fitters course is going to be so watered down that very limited academic

ability is needed then this is a dangerous way to go.

I must admit I would not mind training youngsters how to fit units etc correctly, especially for £30,000 odd a year plus the 11 or so weeks holiday a tutor gets.

So as I read it at the moment, all round kitchen fitters will have to be assessed and trained. Then they will have to pay to register, carrying on with yearly payments and

assessments? Teams who work together but only carry out tasks that they have C&G's in will not have to register? After all we are not kitchen fitters but a group of

professionally trained and qualified tradesmen who carry out a task to deliver an end product.

I know that someone who has no carpentry experience apart from a brief course on mass produced units will have a big problem dealing with a, top end of the market, bespoke kitchen.

If MR DIY can carry on installing his own units, then there will have to be some sort of wording in the legislation to allow him to do so. This is where we have our first loophole in

the system, allowing unqualified installers to carry on working. Even if it is on the unit side of a job.

As a tradesmen I would say that it is far easier for someone to check out the suitability of someone to fit there kitchen, than it is for a tradesmen to check if a customer is a good

customer or a cowboy customer.

Part p is coming out in 2005 1 year late because they can't decide who is going to run it. Electrical bodies want it, FENSA ( who do such a good job with the double glazing

companies!!!) want to run it even Zurich want to run it. Costs range from £900 per year plus cost of books updates assessments down to Zurichs cost, which was something like £50 per

year plus inspections and assessments

Part P is a good thing and can't come too soon. You only have to go on to ask-questions website to see why. Some of the questions from DIY'ers on there, are people waiting to kill

themselves or later house occupiers.

Maybe then, I won't see kitchens that have got un-earthed stainless 13amp socket outlets, stainless steel sinks with no earth bonding etc.

P.s
Don't suppose you need a carpenter/joiner on one of your DIY programmes?

Miles, I admire your passion in arguing the point for seperate trades to undertake kitchen installations but apart from the cost aspect it isn't what the consumer wants nor do I

believe, is it what the employers/retailers want, which leaves us with no choice but to improve the service to the consumer by creating a recognised standard.

Why would you object to having your work assessed in this area in order that your capabilities are registrered for the benefit of your future business? Or do you place so much faith

in papers that you suggest a carpentry course is sufficient a licence for all who own one to fit kitchens?

I never wished to create a division by highlighting that many carpenters I have come across were in need of the more specialist skills required to install a kitchen but at this stage

I feel it is right to tell you they do and are aware that a person who has fitted kitchens as a full time carreer can offer them that advice and training.

The elements of kitchen fitting that are electrical and plumbing related are also specialist skills that kitchen fitters are better suited to than seperate trades because of service

positioning within the kitchen. Knowledge of the appliances, cabinets, accessories equips an experienced kitchen fitter with a greater understanding of components than a plumber,

carpenter or electrician hired for the purpose.

I agree with you regarding the customer having to do their homework before it's too late and finding that the person they employed is not competent, but it has been made easier for

them by the introduction of standards elsewhere such as Corgi, Niceic, so surely it is a logical and progressive step to undertake with those who fit their kitchens.

If you're offering the consumer the option of going to a small claims court or witholding payment then I think they would be only too happy to pay more to ensure that they don't

have to go through the stress associated with a long and drawn out procedure.

If you feel that kitchen fitters are "jack of all trades" I presume you have a vested interest in improving this and would support any initiative that strives to do just that. It is

not an impossibility to train people to undertake the work required to complete a quality installation and many already do although you seem less confident of that than I do.

Bespoke kitchens require a greater level of carpentry skills but again this isn't beyond the capabilities of non C&G fitters.

I'm not sure which questions on the forum you refer to but I am not afraid to ask advice from one of my colleagues if I'm unsure of the procedure or method.

Maybe you have history with poor kitchen installers but you can't tar everyone with the same brush just as for every bad carpenter there is a good one but we shouldn't generalise

them all by the faults of one individual.

I agree that any watered down version is insufficient and the criteria for graduating a dedicated course should be high.

I must admit I would not mind training youngsters how to fit units etc correctly, especially for £30,000 odd a year plus the 11 or so weeks holiday a tutor gets.

Miles, there's nothing stopping you training youngsters at the moment apart from your work diary it seems.

What form training would take is undecided but it is only through disussion such as this that a solution to the issue can ultimately be found.
It would be good to hear from consumers to learn how they feel in this regard.

Personally I see assessment for all, including those with previous and recognised skills, with training offered to those who require a higher degree of skill to install.
A registration membership fee is inevitable to ensure regular vetting, administration costs and training of installers. Perhaps costs should vary according to

experience/qualifications etc. but nothing as yet is written in stone.

I don't see a problem with a person installing their own cabinetry if they so choose and this should certainly not form a part of any legislation but the potentially fatal aspects of

plumbing and electrical services in the home means that something has to be done to minimise the current risks.

If you want to see installations carried out correctly with proper earth bonding and earth continuity on sockets then you must surely welcome Part P as a principle but you still

haven't offered your solution to the problem of poor installations in general.

P.s
Don't suppose you need a carpenter/joiner on one of your DIY programmes?

As it happens Miles we are searching for an all-rounder for the show but the cost implications of bringing in seperate trades to undertake the roles would be too much. We're seeking

candidates in the North West. Pity you don't live closer, I'd be coming out to assess your work.
Now you wouldn't want that would you?

Hello Tim

I had to laugh at your last comment. I asked for that one.

I did do a full reply on Tuesday, it took me about an hour. Unfortunately it somehow got erased when I pressed the key to post it .

I will get round to spending another hour of typing but unfortunately too busy at the moment. You know how it is, get home from work and straight into the garden every night,

gardening.

Bye for now
Miles

Miles.. only just saw your question, I have not been looking at

that thread.

I do indeed work to the 16th , my father was a sparks for 50 years and I was brought up around it, frequently helping him on jobs.
further my son has also been a sparks for 22 years.

I am well aware of the new regs. coming into effect and will start treating electrics as I do gas, paying someone to do them, hopefully my son who I can get cheap.

Hi Tim.

First things first. I am not an all round kitchen fitter. So maybe I will deal with all rounders first. As we seem to be getting our wires crossed.

Training for all round kitchen fitters is a good idea, however this needs to be a long and indepth course. It needs to cover a lot of theory and practical. With a brief training

course, a newly qualified all rounder will come unstuck because he lacks the in depth knowledge and prior training that an indepth course would give.

I reckon one day a week at college, a course will take one year, minimum.

My argument is more about sticking up for the City&Guilds tradesmen who will be affected.

First point If a City&Guilds tradesmen wants to fit as an all rounder, then he should have to do the all round kitchen fitting course.

Second point being, that if a City&Guilds tradesmen only carries out his trade as part of a kitchen installation, then it's pretty obvious that he is already trained to do so.

Therefore, he does not need to go on a course.

I shall just focus on the carpentry side, I.E installing units and worktops, for the rest of my reply. After all this is my main concern.

I do place alot of faith in my City&Guilds papers. After all it took me 3 years at college to get them. A City&Guilds carpentry and joinery course, certainly is enough lisence

to fit units. Here is why:

I can take sawn timber, square it and plane it by hand. do drawings and rods, for cabinets. Form stuck mouldings by hand. Do all joints by hand. Assemble cabinet by hand. I can also

use machines for the task. I was taught as part of my City&Guilds how to mark out before installation and how to install the units and worktops. I can also alter units and reduce

timber sizes without the use of a flipover saw. I have never had to use a flipover saw in installation of units or worktops, due to my in depth training. I do see though, that you

expect anyone who wishes to work for you as an allrounder to have a flipover saw.

Infact I only started to use a mitre saw after my motorbike accident. Before that I used to do mitres freehand. Now however it makes my left wrist ache too much to do them free hand.

In one of your previous posts you mentioned "that any one can set up as a kitchen installer. However site trades need a CIS card as a pre-requisite". You get un-qualified chancers

on site. Biggest being painters. You do not need a CIS card to work on site. Most agencies pay on a PAYE basis. The CIS card just means you are self-employed.

You are a City&Guilds plumber, Tim. You know how indepth the training is.
Isn't it your training that gives you license to carry out plumbing in a kitchen.

Registration will be the way forward for an allrounder. CITB know the City&Guilds trades that are registered with them already. So we should automatically get our tick in the box.

After all the CITB don't come out and check if I can still fit a door properly or put up a cut and pitched roof!!
If a Tradesman wants to work as an allrounder, then he should be assessed in the other trades that he is dabbling in. He should also have to pay to register as an allrounder.


This reply is a bit shorter than the one that got erased. Some points I have missed out because wer'e starting to sound like the Chuckle Brothers, to me, to you,to me .

After all how I feel about alot of allrounders has nothing to do with the debate really.

Hello Joe

Glad you install to 16th edition. There are undoubtedly alot who do, but then there are alot who don't. You should not use your son because you can get him cheap. Pay him the going

rate. After all he has a living to make.

Families. They all want you to work for them for free. Mine pay the going rate. I used to do alot for them when I was younger, at a cheap rate. Then when I started to charge the going

rate for a job, all of a sudden they didn't want as much work done on there houses.

Bye to both of you for now

Miles

Miles,

I sometimes feel that other visitors must think that this message thread is exclusively for you and me only and no doubt they chuckle at the lengthy responses we both offer one

another in attempting to influence each other with our opinions. Just to let others know, this is not the Miles and Tim show and anyone can join in.

I'm also certain that the calibre of kitchen fitter we have both come across in our own business dealings are gulfs apart in the skills they possess.

Your own dealings lead me to believe that those "kitchen fitters" you have crossed paths with are those whose exploitative nature and lack of skills render an industry standard

necessary in the first place.

Secondly, City and Guilds tradesmen are specialists in the fields in which they were trained and not all round kitchen fittiers hence the need for a dedicated training programme. I

have come across a number of guys whose training may have been in an entirely different field but whose skills outshine those who trained in the construction industry when installing

a kitchen.

A course specifically designed for kitchen installers would not only take into account manual skills but social and interactive skills would in my opinion have to form part of the

training. As far as I'm aware no such training formed or forms part of a City and Guilds carpentry or plumbing course.

Miles, it took me four years to complete my own City and Guilds training and no doubt this is because I'm a little older than you but I can still recognise that technology, design,

manufacturing and therefore installation skills have progressed so much that I would need re-training to adapt my skills to suit.

Kitchens too have moved on since that time and now we have a number of different designs that require the all round skills of an, at present, non descript tradesman.

Cabinetry often includes integrated lighting, wirework accessories which may be remotely controlled, tambour door applications, steam ovens, integrated appliances and so on. I'll

wager none of these formed part of any City and Guilds course. Then there are the manufacturing differences that determine how best to install the services in order to avoid

obstruction when fitting a particular appliance and that throws open another difficulty in that some appliances are fitter friendly and others not.

Those whose main line of business is the installation of kitchens are better equipped than others to be able to identify and overcome the difficulties and this is regardless of

whether you are a joiner, electrician, plumber or Thomas Chippendale.

On the flipover saw issue, I recognise as all employers do, that those equipped to install kitchens require the correct tools. Although I do not state it is a pre-requisite of

employment, I do know that when fitting a 21st century kitchen you are not expected to use 20th century tools or methods, as well thought of as they may be unless the bespoke nature

of the work requires that you do so but even then power tools are the preferred method by the vast majority of tradesmen.

It isn't my City and Guilds training that gives me licence to undertake kitchen plumbing Miles. It's not that difficult to learn modern plumbing suitable for most basic diy

projects, it is difficult, however, to identify the appropriate location to install the services to correlate with a specifically chosen kitchen so that it can be correctly installed.

Experience and knowledge of the products give an installer this ability and they are better equipped than anyone to indentify and overcome the potential problems.

Every person wihing to install a kitchen, regardless of his/her training, should undergo assessment and training, if necessary, before they be allowed to trade as an installer. Your

argument is not unlike stating that because you have a certificate for first aid training you should be allowed to carry out surgery.

Those who meet the standard should not have to undergo training in the manual skills required, this I agree, but it should not be a licence for a City and Guilds tradesman to be

exempt from training or assessment. As you say they may have been trained to install cabinetry but the associated components that are included with modern kitchen cabinets did not

form part of that training and and it is only right and fair that they should undergo assessment before trading as a kitchen installer.

Well I think no-one's in doubt about where we both stand but it would be good to find concensus so that quality tradespersons can benefit from any initiative and the consumer can be

assured of value for money.

I hear today that a card scheme is already underway and effective

from July 5th for all installers of bathrooms and kitchens. Operated by the Construction Skills Certification Scheme (CSCS), there are three cardsto show the level of competence and

expertise of installers.

Gold - For those who have reached S/NVQ Level 3
Blue - For those who have reached S/NVQ Level 2
Red - For trainee fitters working towards an S/NVQ Level 2

Existing installers without these qualifications can obtain a card if an employer or former employer will vouch for their competence.

All applicants must have passed the construction health and safety test.

Initially I am shocked and disappointed by the above yet I will reserve full judgement when I have otained the answers to a number of questions that I will put to the CSCS.

All questions and answers will be posted on this website.

The CSCS scheme is not worth a , begins with w and

rhymes with bank.

Interesting that they are tying it in with their health and safety course, so that you have to pay for this also.

The health and safety course is designed for construction site workers.


These people assess and pass foreign "workers" who can't speak English.
Oh yes, don't worry if you can't speak or read English you can take the test in your own language. Not very health and safety, is it. But then again they are making alot of money

out of it.

George Wimpey don't even recognise this scheme.

How long before tradesmen are paying out £3000 plus per year to different organisations just for the privelage of going to work. The Labour party have got alot to answer for.

Hopefully I have only got a few weeks left of working as a tradesmen, because it is getting ridiculouse now, and I for one have had enough.

hmmm units with tambour doors. Thats nothing new they have been around for years. So have units with intergrated lighting.

I have spoken to plumbers, electricians and carpenters all of whom think it is a joke that they will need to be assessed before they can fit extra sockets in a kitchen or carry out

the highly complex and skilled task of plumbing a sink or dishwasher in.

IN your last post you made out that modern kitchens are so complicated to fit and that the variouse trades within that kitchen are too complicated for the relevant City and Guilds

tradesman. Whereas an allrounder can cope. However, why then run a website for DIY type people.

If a City and Guilds carpenter is going to struggle with a unit with a tambour door, how is Mr " I push a pen all week but DIY at the weekend" going to cope?

If intergrated lighting and remote controlled lighting is too complex for a C&G electrician how is Mr DIY going too cope?

If running water supply for a sink is too complicated for a C&G plumber how is MR DIY going to cope?

Lets face it there is nothing complicated in a kitchen that the relevant C&G tradesman can't deal with. Hopefully with a comprehensive training package for an allround fitter,

there won't be anything he can't deal with either, but there will be.

I was talking to someone from a kitchen company, can't remember which one, but they use a kitchen fitting school in Essex and apparently the CITB know and recommend this school.

Lastly, I presume this training for an allrounder will only qualify them to install in domestic premises. If not then lets hope they get taught to plumb with steel pipework so that

they can work in schools, offices etc.

Miles,

You seem to suggest that kitchen fitting is a sinch and nothing associated with it is beyond your or City and Guilds tradesmen's capabilities. This being the case I really don't see

how you can contribute to a discussion that is so much in conflict with your own slant on the current situation.

This is not a battle for who is best equipped and you do a disservice to a large number of very capable fitters by suggesting their skills are lesser than your own.
You state that you are an expert carpenter and that your skills are not in need of assessment when it comes to kitchen fitting and if you feel so strongly about this then that is your

choice.

I suspect though that when a standard is in place that your business may suffer because of your refusal to subscribe and consumers will always opt for the skills of an

assessed/trained installer above those without accreditation.

That is a shame and many plumbers who stubbornly refused to pay the Corgi subscription found that a large slice of their business suffered as they could no longer undertake gas work.

If you had studied my comments you will note that I never suggested that fitting a sink or dishwasher was a highly complex job and conveying this to your plumbig and electrical

colleagues was a total misinterpretation of what I said.

I said

It's not that difficult to learn modern plumbing suitable for most basic diy projects, it is difficult, however, to identify the appropriate location to

install the services to correlate with a specifically chosen kitchen so that it can be correctly installed

Miles, I must also comment on your total misconception of my words in the following statement.

IN your last post you made out that modern kitchens are so complicated to fit and that the variouse trades within that kitchen are too complicated for the relevant

City and Guilds tradesman. Whereas an allrounder can cope. However, why then run a website for DIY type people.

Firstly I did not state that modern kitchens are difficult to install but by the nature of your own business it suggests that you think they are because you sub-contract out electrics

and plumbing work to others. As it happens I do believe they are difficult to fit without the necessary experience, guidance and training if necessary.
Secondly this website is aimed not just at diy enthusiasts but the kitchen consumer in general and you will notice this if you care to browse through the additional pages outside of

the forum. It is visited by over 300 people every day from all corners of the earth as our webstats can testify. Many of these visitors are from a kitchen background whether it be

design, manufacturing or installation.
I have no problem in using my own experience to assist those who wish to install their own kitchen and if they value our guidance and enjoy the experience I don't have a problem with

their ambition to fit for others.
You seem to see it as a threat to yourself and other tradesmen but the sad fact is that their is a massive shortage of tradesmen in this country and any initiative to rectify this is

to be welcomed and will be of benefit to the consumer who is becoming increasingly aware of the precautions they must follow before employing an installer to fit their kitchen or

bathroom.

It is not easy to install a kitchen and even tradesmen require a knowledge of the configuration of the specific cabinetry they must fit appliances to, before they can successfully

install. This is why I am in favour of induction training offered by manufacturers.
For example, certain cabinets do not employ a service void at the rear and this requires a knowledge of the appliance cofiguration in order to install services that do not obstruct

the correct fitting yet overcome the lack of accommodation behind the cabinets. This is just one example and there are many more that I am only aware of through my experience in

kitchen installation.

Assessment is not a word that tradesmen should be afraid of. Why, when they can distinguish themselves from those untrained exploiters who are giving them a bad name?

I think we are guilty in this discussion of finding fault and blame as opposed to looking for a solution and that solution must include any person that wishes to ply their trade as an

installer, surveyor or designer of fitted furniture.

The transformation aspect of our work is unique in the satisfaction it brings to all associated with it. Some would percieve it as carpet and I wouldn't disagree. It is a rewarding

career that needs to recruit the younger element and we can only achieve this by establishing a reputation for excellence in training and consumer confidence

This is a very passionate discussion and as a complete novice

outsider I can see where all of you are coming from. And the less said by me the better.

OK, Tim, Miles, Joe, what questions should I ask kitchen fitters when either (a) on the phone or (b) at my premises.
I mentioned before about pricing for flat packed or pre-assembled carcasses.
I’ve contacted one KF (sorry to abbreviate) and he said that wouldn’t make a difference to the price (which I found odd) but that he charges on the number of units fitted and

additional cutting etc. Is this the norm?
Should I ask to see previous work? If I asked to see any of your previous work would you be offended?
Should he give me a guarantee?
How much should I pay up front? i.e.nothing, 10, 20, 50% or the whole lot.
I must admit I can be quite intimidated by jargon (most people are) and some tradesman brush aside questions and make you feel silly.
The problem is (as stated in my earlier post) there are too many dodgy DIY programmes on prime time television. “Best Kitchens Fitted” wouldn’t make compulsive TV viewing would it

Mmm, Best

Kitchens Fitted, no I can't see it either Brian. That would be too disaster free for most viewers I expect.

As for questions you might ask a fitter, one that you may soon be able to pose is "Are you a registered installer?"

Asking to see previous work is advisable if you have doubts and any installer worth his salt will not be offended although the logistics of arranging this may be tricky unless they

have an extremely accommodating previous client.

I have written an article regarding the questions you should ask an installer before hiring and you may find this useful. The link is [url]

http://www.kitchensfitted.co.uk/ExternalMedia/Start.php[/url]
I too find it strange that an installer draws no distinction on the prices between flat pack and rigid units but if he chooses a price structure that works for his business then we

have to respect the difference at least.

As for charges, there is no standard price structure for kitchen installtion and some may itemise the costs specific to the task whereas others may offer a complete price after

examining the plan. An itemised menu of costs will detail with clarity the prices involved. However, time is not a luxury we have if the kitchen is to be fitted within days and an

agreed cost for the work involved satisfies both parties.

A guarantee of one year is statutory but a clear definition of responsibility is required and this should also be agreed upon prior to installation. For example it is hardly fair for

an installer to be called back to rectify a problem as a result of the negligence of the customer or other trades after installation.

A 50% split prior to and on completion of the installtion seems acceptable and is our own policy. The remaining charges for a return visit should one be necessary
due to shortages is a matter between the customer and the supplier.

Hope this helps and good luck with your kitchen